Episode 1: Martin (Nipsey's Bar and Restaurant) with Phil Kellard
What's going on everyone! And welcome back to Restaurant Fiction the podcast where we review fictional restaurants, bars and clubs featured in TV and film. My name is MONIS ROSE. I am your host of Restaurant Fiction.
Now we have gone through a two-year break. A two year hiatus, and there was good reason for that. We wanted to think how we can really improve Restaurant Fiction from the first, I guess few episodes. And we figured that out.
We are actually bringing you writers, directors, show runners, executives, producers, pretty much any credible folk who has had a hand in said, reviewed fictional restaurant, bar and club.
Today's guest is PHIL KELLARD.
Phil has TV credits up the wazoo, if you know what I mean. He was a huge writer on Hollywood Squares, the Red Fox Show. He pretty much had a gigantic hand in Doogie Howser, MD. You know that small show that put Neil Patrick Harris on the map. He even consults on the Saturday morning series, The Inspectors. All of those TV credits are nice and all but that's not the reason why he's on Restaurant Fiction.
We've invited him on the show because he is an aficionado on the bar featured in the 1990s sitcom Martin starring Martin Lawrence. That bar is called Nipsey’s.
He also knows a thing or two about the restaurant Pops’ Joint which was featured in the Wayans Bros on the WB, when of course, CW was called WB.
Here is the review of Nipsey’s and a conversation with Phil about the Detroit institution as well as insight on writing and developing TV.
Enjoy.
Phil Kellard. He obviously has a long, long list of credits, but he's talking about The Inspectors, which is on CBS and he served as a consulting producer. But, before we even get into any kind of inspectors if we will. I invited Phil here because he is an aficionado on Nipsey's. And Nipsey’s was a bar that Restaurant Fiction went to.
Without any further adieu. So Nipsey’s is a Detroit bar.
Yes.
And it is located in Elmwood. Excuse me, I want to get this right. The name of the Elmwood Park Area like it's near the garden court apartments. You know, it's right around the river. Not really downtown. Not really in the hipster downtown or the trying to be judged vacation. And in a way, that's a good thing, because there's no hipsters. No hipsters at all.
Locals only.
In a way, but you know, Nipsey’s would accept the hipsters.
Nipsey’s would appear as a classy joint. They have these like green awnings.
It was a very nice entryway.
Yeah, very, very nice. Almost like, as if they were getting ready for Frank Sinatra to come in.
Right. And so when you walk in, the only people wearing the nicest duds are the bartender and the cocktail waitresses pretty much.
We had two cocktail waitresses. One character was Tracy and that was played by Kellita Smith. Kellita went on to do The Bernie Mac. Played Bernie Mac's wife on The Bernie Mac Show. And I will remember the other girl too, but there were two cocktail waitresses, and Nipsey’s basically. And that was kind of it for the main characters that ran Nipsey’s.
You know, and luckily, they did class up the joint because other than that, there are characters in Nipsey’s. And no pun intended, but these are not just questionable characters, these are just characters. So you know, what I really enjoyed or what Restaurant Fiction really enjoyed about Nipsey’s was they don't focus on entertainment. Meaning, they don't have money for a DJ. They don't have money for a live band.
No. We did have the Outkast played there.
Outkast played there because we did a show called All the Players Came. We did an episode called All the Players Came. And that night it was Dolemite. It was Rudy Ray Moore. Pam Grier came as herself. Coolio. Antonio Fargas. Huggy Bear from Starsky and Hutch.
I forget who else but it was Called All the Players Came, but it was a contest. It was like Martin, we did an episode about a 70s contest. So everybody came back to Nipsey’s for that night, and OutKast played. And it was, it was one of those episodes where you go, “Wow, look at all these people. Look at all these fantastic people in Nipsey’s.” That night for that performance in that contest.
So you had more, you had better people to look at than just the bartender or the cocktail waitresses?
That's right.
Yeah, I mean, the food we found at Nipsey's was subpar to a bowling alley.
It was.
You weren't ordering a Châteauneuf-du-Pape with anything?
No. Yeah, it was. I mean, if you want your potato skins if you want your onion rings, I'm sure you can get a better deal and on sale at the local convenience store.
Yeah. You could probably get it out of a vending machine.
What kind of wine goes good with that? Well, vintage four o'clock would be fine.
Detroit needs MCs is what Erickson says.
Yes, that's true.
I mean, it was a place that was jumping. You know, it was a joint that was jumping. And I remember we did the whole lot of fever, where Martin thought he won the lotto. And he did a backflip all the way down the bar. Once he saw the numbers on it, but of course, the episode ended. The team took the numbers, and he was already spending the money. So of course, that's a typical Martin episode. But he did, we did have him do some backflips across the bar. Not Martin Lawrence himself, but somebody that looks credibly like him.
And that is why we recommend, Restaurant Fiction, of course, Phil Kellard recommends Nipsey’s. So long live Nipsey’s. And please, the City of Detroit, keep Nipsey’s and Nipsey’s keep Detroit alive.
Yeah, absolutely.
So Phil, how was that review?
It was nice. I thought it was spot on. I really did. I mean, I thought everything you said about (including the jazz and everything), it was spot on. I would totally agree with everything you said in that review. I don't have an issue with any of it.
Excellent. I mean, because we liked the saxophone and the fancy art, and you know, obviously in the set, you know in the bar. I mean, and we loved the bartender wearing almost like all he needed was the jacket. It was a three-piece suit.
Yeah. And Sean who played Nipsey. Who was great. It was fantastic. And yeah, and we had the rehearsal dinner for the great, you know, Wedding Bell Blues there.
Which is an episode that you wrote?
Yeah.
So tell us about it really quick. Tell us about that. I mean, that episode since you had a hand in it, why set one of the most important meals inside Nipsey’s?
Well, you know, because the one thing about that is we had so much fun bringing all the families together. And some of them were staying at Martin's. And we needed that big block comedy scene. You know, and where are you gonna stage it beside Nipsey’s? Because you have all those families and all those personalities. We had Motherland Martin, he had, you know, we had every conceivable family member and we knew we were writing for an explosion. You know, where everybody just gonna blow up. We're better than Nipsey’s, because you're gonna have dinner and people are gonna get a little crazy. And people are going to talk and people are going to drink. So you want to build to that scene. And that's the perfect place to have it.
How many times is Nipsey’s pitched in the writer’s room?
Nipsey’s is probably always pitched. I think when you need a location, you have certain locations in a multi-camera show where you're going to set the scene. So you're always going to go to Nipsey’s. I mean, pretty much in every episode, you're going to go to Nipsey’s for a conversation or, you know, a bigger scene. I think when you're designing a story, you're breaking that story and putting it in different locations. So whether it's a intimate conversation or a conversation that gets bigger among more people, Nipsey’s would probably always come up in every episode once Nipsey’s has established, because Nipsey’s wasn't there for the first two seasons, I believe, because, you know, he had the radio show. So when Nipsey’s came in it took that place almost. Or that set. So yeah, I think Nipsey’s plays into all of it, especially like we were talking about the whole lotto fever.
Where he does all the backflips?
We had a sandbag committed to the backflips but it was so seamless, you know, in editing, but it was just such a perfect thing for Martin. You know, when he realizes he won the lotto, which he did. Those backflips down the bar. I mean, it was a huge laugh for us as writers and when we played it back for the audience that came in that night for the taping.
So Nipsey’s is always going to play into pretty much every episode. Because you always look at how many sets you have? Where can we do these scenes? Nipsey’s standing set. We're going to do intimate scenes there. We're going to do big scenes there. So yeah, it always comes into play.
Why is the jazz motif important?
You know, I'm not sure how that came into play. But it sure looked like that was the tone of Nipsey’s. You know, it was that kind of Miles Davis kind of place in a way. I mean, yes. Bowling Alley, which you described. The food. But I think the atmosphere was that kind of, you know, Miles Davis, kind of hang. So I think the art was important and that saxophone was important to set up that kind of laid back improvisational lifestyle that's going to be in there.
Does Nipsey’s have a twist on a normal bar scene in a TV show?
You know, when I look at Nipsey’s from now. From this perspective, after having done the show. Going in there and looking at watching a film, a scene being taped in there. My feeling, personal feeling, was like I liked it there. I would like to hang out there. So yeah, I would say in that respect, I think it was like a cool place to the way it was designed. I mean, you design it with your art director and your set designer comes in and they show you sketches that they want to do and you go, okay, and this is good. And they usually have your thoughts in mind already before you build the set. But once it's built, I thought, wow, I would like to kind of hang out here. Maybe I wouldn’t want to order too much. Just one drink. Maybe I want to send something back. Maybe I want to wash my hands a lot.
And don't order a happy IPA here in Nipsey’s.
But I think the hang was great. You know, the hang was very cool. I like the way it was designed.
Why have the characters always go to Nipsey’s instead of any environment in any other environment? Why not just keep it in Martin's apartment or Sheneheh’s salon?
Well, I think you've got to get away from you know. It's why friends had a central perk. It's why Seinfeld had their restaurant that they hang out at, and the soup Nazis and all that stuff. You need a place for the group to hang outside of their comfort zone. And to discuss whether you know, or to have big scenes. To really have a place to hang.
It doesn't work for every show. You know, when you're designing a show. Where are these people going to live? Where are these characters going to not only work, but hang out. And those places that you create, when you're developing a show, create scenes for you. They create places to have scenes. So that's why I think restaurants and bars come into play a lot. Not just in multicam. But in single cam also. Because it's a place for them to kind of loosen up, have a drink, talk, have those big party scenes, you know. All those things kind of play into when you develop a show? Where are these people going to live? Where's the show gonna live? It's not just gonna live in an apartment and a workplace. There's another place. What is that? Is it a bar? Is it a restaurant?
So it helps the actor out in a way?
Because I'm getting the sense. Okay, I see a scene of the house, I'm going to act a certain way, but then I see an interior bar, and my character has a drink in his hand. Oh, I'm gonna act in a different way.
Right. Exactly.
Yeah. I'm gonna relate to my characters in different ways. Whether I've had a couple of drinks, or I'm just mad, or you know, whatever that situation is. You can do it in a place outside of an apartment or a house or you know, where the characters come together in a more kind of constrained way. Because that's their family. That's their life. This is their hang. This is their fun. So the energy kind of moves up a little bit.
How significant is Nipsey’s to the show, Martin?
I think it was huge, because it gave us a place to hang out, of course, but have big scenes. Talk about stuff in a restaurant situation where you're not in the workplace, you're not at home. And I think that's why bars and restaurants and stuff. Places like that work so well in sitcoms, because it gives you that air from the family alive. For the workplace. It's that it's where everybody wants to go anyway. It's where everybody you know, you're frustrated you want to go after work.
Or I want to get some shitty bowling food.
Yeah, it's where we all want to go. I think Cheers set it up that way, you know, in a way, it's like where everybody wants to be where everybody wants to be seen, talked about.
You contributed to this book called Inside the Room?
Yes, I did.
You mentioned a lot about always getting the idea of pitching a show you want in the back of any writer's head. How are you going to get the 100 episodes, the syndication, the FU money?
It is probably less now. It's not 100 episodes anymore, but it still does the show have legs? Can I go on? Can you do 100 episodes in your mind?
You know, when I was first coming here to do this with you, Monis. I looked at the shows I've done. At least 10 shows that I've done. At least have a bar or restaurant in them. I mean, Red Fox was the first half hour I did. Ever do. As a writer. I had done variety and all that other stuff. But that was the first show I did and that was about a diner in New York City. And it was, he had a diner/newsstand. And it was Red Fox. I mean, here I am. There's the premise. I mean, there it is. He's working at his restaurant. And it's all jokes about the catch of the day. Here's the canned tuna.
Catch.
That's the catch of the day.
You know, you're doing jokes about that. But it's about that. That's where he works. He has a diner in New York City. Sinbad was on that show. As the cook, the foster son. We had Vanessa Williams. Was the waitress for one episode. If I can trace it back to pretty much every show. There's something in my entire writing career that has some bar or restaurant in it.
When you're developing a show? Do you just say I have to put a bar in here? I have to put a restaurant in here? Or is it coming more naturally? Or is it even coming from, hey, if I put a bar in here, think of all the funny situations, I can have.
Characters really sell shows. Premises don't.
You have to have a strong premise. But the premise, every premise has been done in one way or another. I don't care what you think of, you can think of the strangest premise, it's been pitched or shot or developed in one way or the other.
So the characters really help you develop that show, you know, so I think that does come into play. Almost all the time, you're creating that space for those characters to have those emotions in that free space, or whatever it is. Is that kind of play time almost, you know. We can be who we are because we're having a drink or eating or whatever, or dating or you know those scenes. You almost always come back to that bar or restaurant place. There's that many places where you can put into every episode that will work besides a bar or restaurant.
It's not taken lightly either?
No, it has to be right for the show.
Like Martin. You know. That's a very specific bar/restaurant.
Friends. All those places were very specific. Friends was that coffee place you know. So it has to be really integral to the show. It can't be just say, let's just give them a you know a diner or whatever.
Big hand in the Wayans Bros. The TV show on the WB when before it was the CW. Now, if you don't mind, here is a Wayans Bros question.
Sure. Love those guys.
Oh, really? Had a good time?
Oh, I absolutely love them.
All right. Good. Good.
And the episode called Family Business. It dealt heavily with Pops’ Joint. Heavily and also like trying to sell or trying to do new things. I think it was like a new character or a new guest star wanted to try to change Pops’ diner up a bit.
But anyway, how did you personally treat Pops’ diner? The diner different than Nipsey’s? Or were there also a lot of commonalities?
Well, there were some commonalities.
You wouldn't go to Pops’ for the food. You know, you go to Pops’ for Pops.
Yeah. You wanted to talk to Pops’.
You wanted to get his witherspoon. John is such a wonderful man and such a wonderful guy. But I think you deal with both of them with respect for what they are. You know, you're never gonna bring Pop’s into foam or, you know, small portions. What is that? My steak under my garni?
Yeah, we have a couple of restaurants in LA like that.
Yeah, many of them.
But you treat it with respect because you want the end of the episode to come back to Pops’. You want it to be Pops’ again. You don't want it to be the new whatever somebody is bringing changing Pops’ around, you know.
So I think you respect what you create.
Your respect Pops’. How you created Pops’. How you created that character. How you created that diner. How you created Nipsey’s to be what they are. And yes, you may have an episode that's going to try to bring them into the hipster generation or whatever it makes them a little bit more just a soup song of sauce instead of, “Hey, here’s your stuff. Here it is on the plate.”
I apologize Phil. While you're talking to me. I'm still thinking about that joke. The Catch of the Day with The Redd Foxx every time you mentioned, like, “Hey catch! Catch of the day.” Like I want to use that actually. Yeah, it's that good. It’s the highlight of my week that joke right there.
That's great.
They still make us laugh.
Oh, I know. Yeah, that that is it's gold is what it is. That's a gold that's better than a dad joke.
What are the fundamentals a writer needs to have when creating a restaurant or bar?
You know, I think they have to have some sense of food and love food. I mean, I'm a huge foodie. So I'm okay out there, but I think we’re okay as writers because we can Google any recipe or Google anything to put into the script. But you have to have some sense of how am I going to do either jokes about this or do it realistically. So you have to have some approach to it. And your experience of course always comes into play. Whether you've had you know, we've talked about waiters or whatever your experience in the restaurant. Always comes into play as a writer. And to me as a writer, you always bring your experience to it. You know, being part of it.
Was there ever a moment you're in the writers room eating lunch obviously because many writers just love the lunch part out of styrofoam.
If you get that order wrong for writers. it's no debate.
No way! Really?!
And those poor systems. You have to go out and get those lunches.
So they forgot the cheese on the cheese burger. Or the double double?
Writers live on their stomach.
Shows you know. Sometimes you're living on your stomach because you may spend hours and days in a writer’s room. So that lunch order is very important.
No clean eating in the writers room?
They probably like the Nipsey’s food then.
Yes.
What are you ordering at Nipsey’s? Or you can also say what are you ordering the Pops’ too because you mentioned both?
But you know, I would order chili size. Smothered steak at Nipsey’s.
And what are you drinking?
Probably a beer. Nipsey’s beer.
Pops’? Something under the counter.
He had some white lightning. Some hooch. Something, I don't know.
Maybe some meat or anything he was trying to sell?
That's like prison style.
Excellent.